[MUSIC] [Pop captions up]
Steve Gibson: CRACKED IN UNDER 60 SECONDS I'M STEVE GIBSON WITH GIBSON RESEARCH CORPORATION. [Pop captions down]
Steve Gibson: TODAY ON "THE LAB WITH LEO" WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT HOW BADLY WEB ENCRYPTION HAS JUST BEEN BROKEN. [MUSIC] [Beeping] [MUSIC] [Pop captions up]
Leo: HELLO AND HOW ARE YOU? GOOD TO SEE YOU. WELCOME IT'S TIME FOR "THE LAB". THE SHOW WHERE WE EXPLAIN HOW TECHNOLOGY I DIDN'T MEAN TO SCARE YOU. I'VE BEEN READING THE JERRY LEWIS BIOGRAPHY AND NOW I GET A LITTLE CRAZY! [Pop captions down]
Leo: HOW TECHNOLOGY WORKS IN, IN, IN YOUR HOME, AT WORK, AT PLAY, AT CHURCH, AT SCHOOL EVERYWHERE YOU GO IT'S TECHNOLOGY NOWADAYS. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN EVERYWHERE I GO THIS WOMAN SEEMS TO BE FOLLOWING ME. IT'S KATE ABRAHAM.
Kate: IT'S ORCA. [Both laugh]
Leo: THIS IS EPISODE 46. IT SAYS SO ON THE RED CLIPBOARD.
Kate: I KNOW.
Leo: AND LOOK WHOSE HERE STEVE GIBSON.
Kate: GREAT.
Leo: PAPA SECURITY. [Pop captions up]
Leo: AND HE'S GONNA TALK ALL ABOUT CRACKING WI-FI AS HE TOLD YOU. RICK YAEGER'S ALSO HERE FROM MACMERK, TRIMMING THE FAT ON YOUR MAC HARD DRIVE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: AND BILL MACEWEN WHOSE GONNA TALK ABOUT ALTERNATIVE WORKPLACES.
Kate: MMM-HMM.
Leo: I KIND OF HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE WORKPLACE. I WORK IN A, AT HOME IN CALIFORNIA AT A BED AND BREAKFAST. IN FACT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE IT'S NOT CONVERTED TO OFFICES AND SO IT'S BEAUTIFUL OLD VICTORIAN.
Kate: OKAY.
Leo: I'M IN A KIND OF A GARRET THE ATTIC UP THERE AND EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE SOMEBODY WILL SAY TO ME MY MOTHER STAYED THERE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. EVEN THOUGH IT'S MY OFFICE NOW BABY! SO I'M I YOU KNOW I'VE BEEN VERY COOL. I'VE BEEN VERY CALM. BUT I SEEN A FORK AND NAPKIN HERE AND I'M A LITTLE WORRIED THAT THEIR MIGHT BE SOME FOOD STUFF INVOLVED.
Kate: YEAH WELL NO ANDY WALKER STYLE FOOD STUFF. BUT WE SPOKE LAST MONTH ABOUT CUSTARD.
Leo: YES.
Kate: AND ENGLISH DESSERTS.
Leo: YES.
Kate: AND YOU LOOK HORRIFIED BY IT.
Leo: YES AND I AM STILL.
Kate: SO.
Leo: OH NO.
Kate: THIS IS --
Leo: WHAT IS THIS? IS THIS A TYPICAL ENGLISH PUDDING?
Kate: THIS IT SHOULD BE APPLE. BUT THIS IS RHUBARB AND STRAWBERRY PIE AND --
Leo: AND THAT'S THE, THE CUSTARD?
Kate: THAT'S AMBROSIA CUSTARD. [Both talking at once]
Leo: THAT YOU AMBROSIA?
Kate: YEAH DEVON CUSTARD.
Leo: MMM.
Kate: SO I BROUGHT IT INTO THE SHOW --
Leo: SHOULD I TRY IT?
Kate: OH YOU CAN TRY IT NOW IF YOU LIKE.
Leo: I JUST WANT TO SHOW YOU THOUGH BEFORE WE GET ALL EXCITED ABOUT THE DEVON CUSTARD, THE DEVON CUSTARD CAN. [Both laughing]
Kate: I WOULD HAVE HOMEMADE IT FOR YOU BUT I DIDN'T HAVE TIME. BUT THAT'S LIKE YOU KNOW IT'S A HUGE LABEL IN ENGLAND.
Leo: MMM. IS THIS IT? IS THIS THE ONE?
Kate: THAT'S THE STUFF YEAH.
Leo: YEAH.
Kate: THAT'S DEVON CUSTARD.
Leo: DEVON CUSTARD, CREME PETIT SOURIS. IT ACTUALLY SMELLS QUITE GOOD.
Kate: IT'S ACTUALLY IT'S REALLY SWEET AS WELL SO IT'S --
Leo: I JUST WANT TO SEE WHAT THE NUTRITION VALUE IS.
Kate: YEAH I WOULDN'T BE LOOKING AT THAT.
Leo: NO I'D BETTER NOT. ALL RIGHT GOOD WELL PIE TODAY ON "THE LAB WITH LEO". [Laughs]
Kate: ENGLISH PIE.
Leo: I'VE GOT A LOT, WAIT A MINUTE, I NEED A, I NEED A CRATE TO CARRY ALL MY STUFF. BUT THAT'S VERY NICE. [Both talking at once]
Kate: YOU CAN --
Leo: I'M, I'M ENJOYING THAT. THAT'S GONNA BE VERY GOOD. IT WILL GO WELL WITH MY CUP OF VODKA. UM DO WE, DO WE HAVE A CALLER ON THE --
Kate: NO BRING ENGLISH VODKA. [Both laugh]
Leo: GOOD. OH GOOD.
Kate: WE DO HAVE A CALLER. OUR FIRST CALLER IS RICK FROM EDMONTON IN ALBERTA.
Leo: THANK YOU SO MUCH KATE. THAT'LL BE FUN. I CAN'T WAIT TO TASTE THAT. RICK FROM EDMONTON.
Kate: YES.
Leo: HELLO RICK.
Rick: HI LEO. HOW ARE YOU? [Pop captions up]
Leo: I'M WELL. HOW ARE YOU?
Rick: I'M EXCELLENT THANKS.
Leo: AND WHAT CAN I DO FOR YOU TODAY?
Rick: WELL I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT WEB BROWSING. I, I HAVE AN OLDER COMPUTER. [Pop captions down]
Rick: IT'S, IT'S AN EXTREME. IT'S LIKE A CELERON ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE YEARS OLD.
Leo: OKAY.
Rick: AND I'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU FOR YEARS SO I KNOW NOT TO USE IE7 OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I USE FIREFOX.
Leo: OKAY.
Rick: AND IT RUNS KIND OF SLOW. SO A LITTLE WHILE AGO I TRIED THIS OPERA 9.2.
Leo: YES.
Rick: AND I DON'T ANYTHING ABOUT OPERA. AND I WAS JUST WONDERING HOW SECURE IS OPERA?
Leo: I LIKE OPERA QUITE A BIT. [Pop captions up]
Leo: NOW FIRST OF ALL I SHOULD SAY WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT NOT USING IE THAT WAS REALLY IE6. IE7 IS CONSIDEERABLY BETTER. UM AH IT IS STILL HAS THIS BASIC PROBLEM WHICH IS ACTIVE X SCRIPTS ARE PERMITTED THROUGH INTERNET EXPLORER. [Pop captions down]
Leo: BUT IE7 AT LEAST IS, IS NOT GONNA JUST LAUNCH THOSE SCRIPTS AUTOMATICALLY. YOU'LL GET THAT YELLOW BAR THAT SAYS THE WEBSITE IS TRYING TO RUN A PROGRAM. IS IT OKAY? AND THAT SINGLE CHANGE MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE. THAT WAS THE THING THAT REALLY CONCERNED ME ABOUT IE7. OH AND IN A SECOND I'LL ASK STEVE GIBSON CAUSE HE'S AN INTERNET EXPLORER USER. BUT LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT FIRE, AH, AH OPERA CAUSE I THINK I SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT OPERA MORE OFTEN. I THINK IT'S AN EXCELLENT BROWSER. UM WE TALK ABOUT FIREFOX A LOT AND THE REASON WE TALK ABOUT FIREFOX AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO IE6 IS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SUPPORT ACTIVE X AT ALL. SO AT LEAST THAT FORM OF SCRIPTING IS DISABLED. THERE ARE OTHER FORMS OF SCRIPTING AND STEVE I'M SURE IS GONNA SAY SCRIPTING'S BAD. I DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS ON HERE SEAN SO THERE'S SOMETHING YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK. SO I CAN'T YOU SHOW YOU OPERA. AHEM, AHEM, AHEM, LET ME SEE. IT MIGHT JUST BE THE WINDOWS THING. LET ME GO BACK AND GO OVER TO THE MAC SIDE AND SEE IF, IF THAT'S OKAY HERE. OPERA IS O-P-E-R-A.COM, NOPE. IT'S A NORWEGIAN COMPANY AND IT MAKES AN EXCELLENT BROWSER. YOU WANT TO GIVE IT, YOU WANT TO GIVE IT ANOTHER -- I'LL GIVE YOU A PIECE OF PIE.
Sean Carruthers: OH I'D LOVE IT.
Leo: AND SOME DELICIOUS DEVON CUSTARD. I'VE GOT A WHOLE CAN.
Sean Carruthers: THERE WE GO.
Leo: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU. MY, MY WIRE FELL OUT. SO LET'S NOW LET'S GO TO OPERA.COM. IT'S VERY FAST. I THINK YOU PROBABLY NOTICED THAT RIGHT?
Rick: I DID YEAH.
Leo: YEAH. UM IT IS FREE, WHICH IS NICE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: THEY USED TO PUT ADVERTISING IN IT. THEY DON'T DO THAT ANYMORE. IT HAS SOME REALLY NICE FEATURES. IN FACT THIS WAS THE FIRST BROWSER TO PUT IN TABS WINDOWS. THEY DO TABS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY BUT HEY THEY'RE TABS WHICH IS, WHICH IS PRETTY COOL. [Pop captions down]
Leo: OPERA MANY PEOPLE USE ON THEIR PHONES. I USE IT ON MY PHONE. IT, IT, THEY'VE REALLY PUSHED AH THAT SIDE OF THEIR BUSINESS QUITE A BIT. AH IT IS AVAILABLE FOR WINDOWS AND MAC. YOU NOTICE I'M DOING IT ON MAC SO IT NOTICED THAT AND IT'S GIVING ME THE MAC VERSION BUT IT LOOKS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. UM I WOULD SAY THERE'S NO, THERE'S YOU KNOW THE REASONS THAT I LIKE FIREFOX ARE THE SAME REASONS I WOULD LIKE OPERA. AH, AH AND I HAVE TO SAY IE7 IS LESS OF A PROBLEM. NOW STEVE ARE YOU MIKED? YEAH HE IS.
Steve Gibson: YEAH.
Leo: LET'S, LET'S GET STEVE GIBSON'S OPINION ON, ON ALL THIS CAUSE YOU STILL USE INTERNET EXPLORER. BUT YOU DO SOMETHING THAT I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE GONNA WANT TO DO, WHICH IS YOU, YOU BASICALLY LOCK IT DOWN.
Steve Gibson: YEAH THE, THE IE HAS A NICE FEATURE WHERE THEY NEVER THIS NOTION OF ZONES WHERE YOU'RE ABLE TO TIGHTEN THE SECURITY ON YOUR INTERNET ZONE. THE SO-CALLED INTERNET ZONE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: SO THAT NOTHING WILL RUN.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: THEN YOU CAN PUT SPECIFIC SITES THAT YOU TRUST LIKE AMAZON AND EBAY AND SO FORTH. SITES THAT YOU KNOW YOU'VE, YOU'VE PUT THEM IN YOUR SO- CALLED TRUSTED ZONE WHERE YOU HAVE DIFFERENT SECURITY SETTINGS FOR THAT ZONE. SO THAT THE --
Leo: OH SO THIS NEW INTERNET EXPLORER PROTECTED MODE MAKES IT MUCH SAFER. IS THAT AVAILABLE IN XP OR IS IT ONLY IN VISTA? I THINK ITS VISTA.
Steve Gibson: AH ONLY IN VISTA.
Leo: IT'S ONLY IN VISTA. OH SHOOT.
Steve Gibson: YEAH.
Leo: OKAY.
Steve Gibson: YEAH.
Leo: SO LET ME JUST THIS IS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT RICK --
Steve Gibson: IF HE TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE, OF THE NEW VISTA FEATURES.
Leo: YEAH, YEAH, IT'S, IT'S THE PROTECTIVE MODE ACTUALLY I THINK THEN MAKES IT AS SAFE AS ANYTHING ELSE, IN FACT MAYBE EVEN MORESO. THE THING THAT STEVE DOESN'T LIKE AMONG OTHER THINGS IS NOT JUST ACTIVE SCRIPT. HE DOESN'T LIKE JAVASCRIPT AND THE OTHER SCRIPTING. SO WHAT HE DOES IS HE SELECTS THE INTERNET ZONE AND TURNS THE SECURITY LEVEL ALL THE WAY UP. WHICH MEANS BASICALLY NONE, NO SITE WORKS NOW.
Steve Gibson: WELL THEN I GO IN AND TURN IT ON -- [Both talking at once]
Leo: YEAH WELL WE'RE GONNA, I WANT TO, I'LL SHOW, I'LL SHOW YOU THAT.
Steve Gibson: THINGS.
Leo: I'LL SHOW YOU THAT. SO LET'S GO TO OUR SITE. I'M JUST CURIOUS, SEE IF OUR SITE WORKS AT ALL. IT MAY OR MAY NOT. AH YEAH IT WORKS PRETTY, OH HEY LOOK AT THAT. WE'RE A, WE'RE A GOOD SITE. BUT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW SITES THAT WON'T WORK. IF I GO TO GOOGLE.COM/IG I THINK BECAUSE THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF JAVASCRIPT ON THERE IT MIGHT COMPLY.
Steve Gibson: AND THE, THE DANGER IS IF YOU JUST WANDER AROUND THE INTERNET. IF YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO LIKE JUST GOES AND CLICKS ON ANY LINK YOU ARE, YOU'RE GOING TO SIGHTS YOU DON'T KNOW.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: AND, AND YOU KNOW SCRIPTING SAYS TO THE, TO, TO, TO THE REMOTE SITE SEND SOME CODE AND I'M GONNA RUN IT ON MY BROWSER CLIENT.
Leo: ON THE LOCAL MACHINE -- [Both talking at once]
Steve Gibson: WHICH IS, WHICH IS --
Leo: WHICH THAT'S DANGEROUS, RIGHT. SO, SO HE'S GOT THE INTERNET ZONE SET TO HIGH NOW. BUT YOU SEE THERE'S ANOTHER ZONE TRUSTED SITES. AND WHAT DO YOU SET THE LEVEL FOR ON TRUSTED SITES? PROBABLY LOW RIGHT?
Steve Gibson: AH PROBABLY LOW CAUSE I'M SAYING --
Leo: THAT MEANS I TRUST YOU SO YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT.
Steve Gibson: OR I THINK IT'S, IT'S THE I'LL SET IT TO THE SAME LEVEL THAT MICROSOFT NORMALLY SETS THE INTERNET TO.
Leo: WELL THAT'S MEDIUM. YEAH THAT'S MEDIUM.
Steve Gibson: I THINK IF THERE, IS THERE A MEDIUM HIGH?
Leo: YEAH.
Steve Gibson: OR A MEDIUM LOW? THEY PUT SOME EXTRA LEVELS IN THERE NOW.
Leo: YEAH. SO I'LL NOW LET'S SAY MEDIUM HIGH OR LET'S SAY MEDIUM. I MEAN YOU, YOU TRUST THESE GUYS. NOW YOU CLICK SITES AND YOU CAN ADD SITES. SO YOU SEE I'M GOOGLE.COM. IT KNEW THAT. I'M GONNA CLICK ADD AND THAT'S GONNA OH YOU HAVE TO UNCHECK THIS REQUIRED SERVER THERE.
Steve Gibson: YES YOU DO.
Leo: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S -- [Both talking at once]
Steve Gibson: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THING IS. IT'S ALWAYS IN THE WAY.
Leo: THEY PUT THAT THERE SAYING WELL YOU REALLY SHOULDN'T TRUST THIS SITE UNLESS IT'S HTTPS.
Steve Gibson: YEAH, YEAH.
Leo: THAT'S, THAT'S NOT SO. SO WE'RE GONNA ADD, SO NOW GOOGLE HAS FULL PERMISSION. BUT EVERY OTHER SITE IS STILL KIND OF BLOCKED OFF. AND SO THE DRAWBACK AND THE REASON MOST PEOPLE DON'T DO THIS IS AS YOU SURF --
Steve Gibson: IT'S A PAIN IN THE BUTT.
Leo: IT'S A PAIN IN THE BUTT.
Steve Gibson: YEAH.
Leo: YOU HAVE TO SLOWLY ADD SITES. NOTICE THIS THING FOR INSTANCE DIDN'T LOAD THIS, THIS, THIS JAIKU BETA. A LOT OF THIS DIDN'T LOAD BECAUSE IT USES JAVASCRIPT. SO THERE'S ALWAYS WHITE, WHITE SPACES ON MY PAGE. IT WILL NOW BECAUSE I'VE GIVEN PERMISSION TO GOOGLE TO DO THAT. SO THAT'S A WAY TO LOCK DOWN IE7. BUT I THINK BUT IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION RICK I THINK OPERA IS AN EXCELLENT BROWSER AND NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. ALTHOUGH IT DOESN'T IN FACT GIVE YOU NOW THOSE SECURITY FEATURES. ACTUALLY DOES IT OR NOT? NOW IS THERE INTERNET OPTIONS - -
Steve Gibson: YOU COULD ARGUE THAT IT DOESN'T NEED THEM AS MUCH --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: AS IE DOES. SO IE HAD TO ADD THEM TO PROTECT ITSELF --
Leo: ITSELF.
Steve Gibson: FROM ITS HISTORY, IT'S --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: ITS BAD HISTORY.
Leo: I WOULD SAY YOU'RE NOT GONNA, YOU'RE NOT GONNA, THE ONE DRAWBACK TO OPERA IS NOT ALL PAGES WILL WORK WITH OPERA. IT'S PRETTY, IT'S PRETTY COMPLIANT. BUT NOT EVERYTHING WILL WORK WITH OPERA. THAT'S NOT SUCH A BIG DEAL. YOU'RE GONNA KEEP INTERNET EXPLORER AROUND ANYWAY. SO I'D, I'D SAY USE OPERA, USE FIREFOX, USE INTERNET EXPLORER. USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB. BUT ARE THEY, THEY SURFING WITH OPERA? ABSOLUTELY RICK. I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA. AND IF YOU LIKE IT I, I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF ADHERENTS WHO JUST SWEAR BY OPERA. SO GO AHEAD AND GO AHEAD AND USE IT.
Rick: YEAH I JUST NOTICED THAT IT IS A FASTER BROWSER AND THAT'S WHY I WAS WONDERING WITH AN OLDER MACHINE. YOU KNOW I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT WAS SECURE BEFORE I STARTED USING IT.
Leo: YEAH. IT'S, IT'S I MEAN IT'S AS SECURE ANY BROWSER. ALL BROWSERS ARE FUNDAMENTALLY INSECURE BECAUSE THEY ALLOW WEBSITES TO RUN PROGRAMS AS STEVE SAYS ON YOUR SYSTEM. SO ULTIMATELY WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IS SAY YOU CAN'T RUN JAVASCRIPTS. YOU CAN'T RUN THESE PROGRAMS UNLESS I SAY SO. NOW THAT BREAKS A LOT OF THE WEBSITES. SO STEVE AND I HAVE A LITTLE BATTLE, A RUNNING BATTLE. HE'S, HE'S MR. SECURITY AND HE SAYS YOU WANT TO BE SECURE? TURN OFF SCRIPTING. HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I'M SAYING YEAH BUT NOBODY'S GONNA DO THAT. THEY'LL GIVE UP BECAUSE IT BREAKS EVERYTHING. SO THERE'S GOT TO BE A HAPPY MEDIUM. USING OPERA'S A GOOD START. SO I'M GONNA TRY A LITTLE CUSTARD WHILE WE TAKE A BREAK. GIBBY IS HERE MR. STEVE GIBSON OUR SECURITY EXPERT AND IN JUST A LITTLE BIT HE'S GONNA SHOW US HOW TO WHAT IS IT? [Pop captions up]
Leo: SECURE CRACK WI-FI, OH THAT'S GOOD. STEVE!
Steve Gibson: HOW, HOW BADLY BROKEN IT IS.
Leo: STEVE. MEANWHILE LET'S ALL HAVE SOME CUSTARD. MMM, OH THAT'S QUITE GOOD. I LIKE THAT. THAT WAS DELICIOUS. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. [Pop captions down] [MUSIC] [Commercial break] [MUSIC]
Leo: WELCOME BACK TO "THE LAB WITH LEO". I AM LEO LAPORTE. THIS IS AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW IS STEVE GIBSON.
Steve Gibson: YEAH I AM.
Leo: MY FAVOURITE SECURITY GUY. YOU FIND HIM AT GRC.COM WHERE HE DOES SHIELDS UP. NOW 50,000,000 DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE --
Steve Gibson: 51.
Leo: 51,000,000?
Steve Gibson: YEAH WE'RE CRANKING.
Leo: UNBELIEVABLE. AND TESTED THEIR FIREWALLS AND ROUTERS WITH SHIELDS UP. HE ALSO DOES A LOT OF FREE SECURITY SOFTWARE JUST OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF HIS HEART. AND HIS BREAD AND BUTTER --
Steve Gibson: WELL CAUSE PEOPLE NEED SECURITY.
Leo: YEAH RIGHT. YEAH THAT'S THE NEAT THING ABOUT STEVE. I MEAN HE REALLY BELIEVES IN THIS STUFF.
Steve Gibson: YEAH.
Leo: UM AND IS ON A CRUSADE TO PROTECT US. HE ALSO DOES SPINRITE WHICH IS A GREAT DISK --
Steve Gibson: DOO-DOO-DOO [Both laugh]
Leo: THE CAPED CRUSADER IS HERE. SO RE-RECENTLY WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG AND WE'VE SAID ON THIS SHOW AND IT'S BECAUSE I'VE LEARNED IT FROM YOU THAT WI-FI ENCRYPTION THERE'S ONLY REALLY ONE WAY TO PROTECT YOUR WIRELESS NETWORK AND THAT'S SOMETHING CALLED WPA.
Steve Gibson: THE LATER MODEL, THE LATER EDITION OF ENCRYPTION EXACTLY.
Leo: AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!
Steve Gibson: WELL WHAT'S HAPPENED IS BECAUSE THE WI, THE ORIGINAL WI-FI ENCRYPTION WAS WEP, W-E-P. THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO ARE USING IT BECAUSE THEY FIGURE WELL IT'S GOOD ENOUGH.
Leo: IT CAME WITH THE THING. IT, IT --
Steve Gibson: IT'S BUILT IN.
Leo: IN SOME CASES YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. IF YOU HAVE A NIN-NINTENDO YOU CAN ONLY USE W-E-P.
Steve Gibson: OR, OR FOR EXAMPLE AN, AN OLDER TIVO THAT YOU WANT TO DO WI-FI.
Leo: MMM-HMM.
Steve Gibson: IT WARRANTS MORE WPA.
Leo: MMM-HMM, MMM-HMM.
Steve Gibson: JUST BECAUSE THEY SORT OF HAVEN'T GOT AROUND TO IT AND THERE HASN'T BEEN ENOUGH PRESSURE ON PEOPLE AND ON SUPPLIERS TO MOVE TO WPA BECAUSE IT WAS FELT THAT W-E-P WAS GOOD ENOUGH. WELL ABOUT A MONTH AGO SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT CHANGES THAT, IT CHANGES THAT BALANCE SO SUBSTANTIALLY THAT WEP IS NOW EVEN MORE BADLY BROKEN THAN EVER. THE IDEA WAS THAT, THAT THE LONGEST KEY YOU COULD HAVE FOR WEP WAS 128 BITS. UM 24 OF THEM YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CAUSE, CAUSE, CAUSE THEY'RE NOT REALLY PART OF THE KEY THAT YOU SUPPLY. BUT THE REST YOU DO. [Pop captions up]
Steve Gibson: THE PROCESS OF CRACKING THEM REQUIRED SUCCESSIVELY GETTING EACH BIT OF THE KEY THROUGH A PROCESS OF, OF LISTENING TO A HUGE NUMBER OF PACKETS.
Leo: SO A BAD GUY WHO WANTED TO GET INTO YOUR WI-FI. [Pop captions down]
Leo: AND WE'LL STIPULATE THAT GETTING INTO YOUR WI-FI IS SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT HIM TO DO. IT'S NOT JUST BORROWING YOUR INTERNET ACCESS. IT'S ACTUALLY ABLE TO GET INTO YOUR NETWORK AND WELL THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
Steve Gibson: WELL LIKE BEING PLUGGED INTO YOUR HUB.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS BEING, HAVING A WIRE --
Leo: AND THEY CAN SEE EVERYTHING YOU'RE DOING.
Steve Gibson: YES.
Leo: SO LET'S SAY WE KNOW YOU WANT TO ENCRYPT IT. YOU, YOU, IF YOU USE, IF YOU USE WEP A GUY CAN SIT ON YOUR CURB WITH A LAPTOP AND APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE AND JUST CAPTURE YOUR PACKETS AND THEN EVENTUALLY HE CAN, HE DOES WHAT?
Steve Gibson: WELL AND EVENTUALLY IT WAS THE KEY. IT IS THE KEY BECAUSE IT USED TO TAKE MANY DAYS IN ORDER TO GET --
Leo: SO YOU'D HAVE TO SIT THERE FOR DAYS TO GET ALL THE DATA.
Steve Gibson: YOU HAVE TO REALLY WANT --
Leo: OKAY. [Laughs]
Steve Gibson: TO GET INTO THE NETWORK.
Leo: OKAY.
Steve Gibson: WITH THIS, THIS RECENT QUOTE INNOVATION IN, IN CRACKING ON A REASONABLE SPEED MACHINE THOSE, THOSE DAYS HAVE BEEN COMPRESSED TO 60 SECONDS.
Leo: A MINUTE?
Steve Gibson: ONE MINUTE.
Leo: TALK ABOUT GONE IN 60 SECONDS.
Steve Gibson: I MEAN IT'S EASIER TO CRACK YOUR OWN NETWORK THEN TYPE IN YOUR PASSWORD. [Leo laughing]
Leo: VERY HANDY IF YOU FORGET YOUR PASSWORD.
Steve Gibson: I MEAN AND, AND SO THIS HAS JUST HAPPENED. SO FIRST OF ALL PEOPLE HAVE TIME TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND WORK ON MOVING AWAY FROM WEP TO WPA.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: BECAUSE IT'S GONNA BE A WHILE BEFORE THE TOOLS COME OUT. BUT THERE ARE ALREADY SOME, SOME NOW WEP SECOND GENERATION WEP CRACKING TOOLS THAT WILL, THAT WILL JUST SLICE THROUGH WEP ENCRYPTION EVEN THE, THE STRONGEST WEP ENCRYPTION IN A MINUTE.
Leo: WHAT HAPPENED? DID THEY --
Steve Gibson: SO THAT CHANGES THE WHOLE BALANCE.
Leo: NO KIDDING. DID THEY FIGURE OUT A NEW WAY TO DO THIS OR --
Steve Gibson: YES. IT WAS I MEAN THIS STUFF THE MATH BEHIND THIS JUST I MEAN IT MAKES YOUR EYES BLEED. IT'S JUST UNBELIEVABLE HOW DENSE THIS IS. [Pop captions up]
Steve Gibson: BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT INTRIGUES CRYPTOGRAPHERS AND HACKERS SO THEY'VE KEPT POUNDING AWAY ON THIS. NOW THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY, IT USED TO BE THAT AS YOU WERE GUESSING SUCCESSIVE BITS OF THE KEY YOU WOULDN'T KNOW UNTIL YOU'D, YOU'D GO A WAYS DOWN IF YOU WERE ON THE WRONG TRACK. [Pop captions down]
Steve Gibson: YOU'D HAVE TO BACKTRACK AND, AND THEN LIKE TAKE A DIFFERENT BRANCH.
Leo: YEAH.
Steve Gibson: CHANGE A BIT AND THEN WORK FORWARD AGAIN.
Leo: SO IT TAKES A WHILE.
Steve Gibson: SO ALL OF THIS INTERTIVE BACK AND FORTH --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: EXPLORING THIS TREE OF POSSIBLE KEYS TOOK A LONG TIME. NOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO DETERMINE BITS OF THE KEY INDEPENDENT OF OTHER BITS. AND SO YOU NO LONGER ARE, ARE PENALIZED IF, IF, IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE EARLY IN, IN THIS TREE EXPLORATION. BASICALLY IT WHAT WAS ONCE EXPONENTIAL TIME --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: BECOMES LINEAR TIME.
Leo: UH-HUH.
Steve Gibson: AND THAT RADICALLY CHANGES THE BALANCE.
Leo: AREN'T HACKERS REALLY SMART? I MEAN IS THIS, THAT SCARES ME A LITTLE BIT IF THEY'RE THAT SMART.
Steve Gibson: WELL --
Leo: OR IS THIS RESEARCHERS WHO WERE FIGURING THIS OUT?
Steve Gibson: YES IT IS SUPER-GALACTIC CRYPTO GUYS WHO ARE POUNDING AWAY ON THIS. THE PROBLEM IS --
Leo: THEY'RE NOT BAD GUYS.
Steve Gibson: THEY PRODUCE PROOF OF CONCEPT CODE --
Leo: AH RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: THAT THEN SCRIPT KIDDIES WILL BE ABLE TO USE. MY POINT IS A FEW MONTHS FROM NOW YOU'LL BE ABLE TO DOWNLOAD STUFF FOR, FOR LINUX AND WINDOWS AND MAC --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: WHERE IT'S A SINGLE BUTTON AND IN A, IN A MINUTE YOU'LL --
Leo: AND SOME KID WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE MATH CAN DO IT.
Steve Gibson: YES, EXACTLY. SO IT'LL BE A TURNKEY PUSH BUTTON.
Leo: SO WHAT DO PEOPLE DO NOW?
Steve Gibson: WHAT YOU NEED TO DO FIRST OF ALL JUST BE AWARE OF THIS. THINK ABOUT WHAT IT IS YOU'RE DOING WITH YOUR NETWORKS. I MEAN ARE YOU REALLY DOING NOTHING BUT HOOKING YOUR TIVO UP? IF THAT'S THE CASE OKAY YOU KNOW YOU'RE WIRED EXCEPT FOR YOUR TIVO CAUSE IT'S IN ANOTHER ROOM AND, AND IT'S JUST INCONVENIENT TO, TO, TO RUN THE NETWORK TO IT OR --
Leo: THAT'S NOT A BIG DEAL IF SOMEBODY HACKS INTO YOUR TIVO.
Steve Gibson: OR, OR ARE YOU USING WI-FI AS YOUR LAND --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: FOR YOUR BANKING, FOR YOUR EMAIL --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: FOR YOUR WEBSURFING.
Leo: THAT'S WHAT MOST OF US DO.
Steve Gibson: I KNOW CAUSE IT'S SO CONVENIENT.
Leo: SO IF AH, OKAY SO THERE'S ONE LEVEL -- [Both talking at once]
Steve Gibson: -- THE DOCUMENTS TO WPA.
Leo: WHERE PEOPLE JUST PUT IT, YOU KNOW WHEN THEY GET IT OUT THE BOX THEY TURN IT ON AT WORK SO THEY DON'T MESS WITH IT. THAT'S COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED, UNENCRYPTED AND THAT'S I WOULD SAY PROBABLY MORE THAN HALF OF EVERYBODY'S DOING THAT, SO.
Steve Gibson: BECAUSE WELL THERE ARE EVEN PEOPLE WHO SAY I LIKE TO SHARE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: YOU KNOW I USE OTHER PEOPLE'S OPEN WI-FI.
Leo: AND I WOULD LIKE TO, I LOVE THAT.
Steve Gibson: I'D LIKE TO MAKE MINE AVAILABLE TOO.
Leo: AND I WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT. THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT SAFELY BUT IT REQUIRES GETTING A NEW, ANOTHER ROUTER TO GO WITH IT.
Steve Gibson: GET, GETTING A DELIBERATELY OPEN ONE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: AND THEN LOCKING DOWN YOUR OWN. YES.
Leo: ONE OF THE, ONE OF THE FONERA ROUTERS FOR INSTANCE. THEY'RE CHEAP. THEY'RE 40 BUCKS AND YOU AND ITS DESIGNED EXACTLY FOR THAT.
Steve Gibson: WELL AND THERE ARE EVEN PEOPLE WHO NOW HAVE A WEP ROUTER AND A WPA ROUTER. WEP FOR THINGS LIKE THEIR REFRIGERATOR OR THEIR DISHWASHER --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: OR THEIR TIVO --
Leo: CAUSE THEY'RE TOO STUPID TO DO IT, RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: THAT, THAT DON'T SUPPORT WPA.
Leo: RIGHT. BUT IF YOU'RE USING A WIRELESS ROUTER YOU SHOULD GO INTO THE WIRELESS ROUTER SETUP, THE CONFIGURATIONS.
Steve Gibson: UPDATE ITS FIRMWARE. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR WIRELESS ROUTER FIRMWARE UP TO DATE.
Leo: SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING.
Steve Gibson: BECAUSE THEY'RE FIXING LITTLE GLITCHES AND GOTCHAS ALL THE TIME.
Leo: GO TO THAT, GO TO THAT INTERFACE PAGE AND UPDATE THE FIRMWARE AND THEN GO TO THE FRONT OF, THEY'RE VERY IT'S ALWAYS ALMOST ALWAYS ON THE VERY FIRST PAGE AND IT SAYS ENCRYPTION AND CHOOSE -- WHAT SHOULD THEY CHOOSE WPA?
Steve Gibson: YES NOW THERE ARE A COUPLE OF FLAVOURS. THERE'S, THERE'S, THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED TKIP.
Leo: MMM-HMM.
Steve Gibson: TEMPORAL KEY INTEGRITY PROTOCOL, ALSO SOMETIMES CALLED WPA PERSONAL.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: THAT'S ALL YOU NEED.
Leo: THAT'S FINE.
Steve Gibson: SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE THERE IS ENTERPRISE --
Leo: YEAH.
Steve Gibson: AND OTHER STUFF WPA2, THAT THEY WELL YOU KNOW USE WHATEVER YOU CAN. BUT ANY FLAVOUR OF WPA AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A GOOD PASSWORD IS SAFE ENOUGH. THE, THE ONLY VULNERABILITY WITH WPA, THE ONLY WAY WE KNOW OF THAT IT CAN BE ATTACKED IS THROUGH BRUTE FORCE OR DICTIONARY PASSWORD CRACKING. SO IF --
Leo: SO IF, SO IF YOUR BUDDY HAS YOUR PASSWORD --
Steve Gibson: YES.
Leo: YOU'RE GONNA GET CRACKED CAUSE THEY'LL JUST TRY ALL THE PASSWORDS.
Steve Gibson: WELL IN FACT I HAVE IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THIS I DID A PASSWORDS PAGE AT GRC.COM. IF YOU GO GRC.COM/PASSWORDS THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IT'LL TAKE YOU TO A PAGE THAT GENERATES MONSTER NIGHTMARE PASSWORDS. [Both talking at once]
Leo: NOT EASY PASSWORDS. RIGHT. [Laughs]
Steve Gibson: AND IT CREATES A, A SECURE CONNECTION.
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: IT WON'T DO IT WITHOUT A SECURE CONNECTION AND GIVES YOU SOMETHING YOU I MEAN EVEN YOU CAN'T GUESS IT.
Leo: BUT SAVE IT BECAUSE -- [Laughs]
Steve Gibson: YOU HAVE TO, YOU HAVE TO CUT AND PASTE IT.
Leo: CAUSE YOU NEED IT.
Steve Gibson: CAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING BROKE.
Leo: SO TURN ON WPA, USE A GOOD PASSWORD. DON'T USE W-E-P.
Steve Gibson: YOU REALLY CAN'T ANYMORE.
Leo: AND GO TO GRC.COM FOR SPINRITE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: THAT'S STEVE'S GREAT DISK RECOVERY AND MAINTENANCE UTILITY. AND FOR OUR SECURITY NOW PODCAST WHICH WE DO EVERY WEEK. THAT IS G-R-C.COM. [Pop captions down]
Leo: THANK YOU STEVE GIBSON.
Steve Gibson: ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
Leo: COMING UP MORE OF YOUR CALLS IN JUST A BIT AND RICK MACMERC IS GONNA SHOW US SOME GREAT STUFF ABOUT FINDING FREE SPACE ON YOUR MAC HARD DRIVE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: BUT FIRST LET'S DO OUR WHAT THE TECH CONTEST. A CLOSEUP OF SOMETHING. WELL SEE NOW I KNOW SEE THAT'S A SPEAKER. BUT WHAT'S IT, WHAT'S IT ON? WHERE IS IT FROM? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA?
Steve Gibson: I KNOW.
Leo: YOU KNOW?
Steve Gibson: I KNOW.
Leo: STEVE'S SMART. IT'S A CLOSEUP OF SOMETHING. YOU FIGURE IT OUT. WE'LL ZOOM OUT AND FIND OUT WHEN "THE LAB" CONTINUES. STAY HERE. [MUSIC] [Pop captions down] [Commercial break] [MUSIC] [Pop captions up]
Leo: WELCOME BACK TO "THE LAB". BEFORE THE BREAK WE SHOWED YOU THIS CLOSEUP OF SOMETHING AND ASKED YOU WHAT THE TECH IT IS? SOMETHING COMMONLY FOUND AROUND "THE LAB". LET'S ZOOM OUT AND FIND OUT STEVE SAYS ITS A, OH IT'S A ON A PHONE. WE THOUGHT IT WAS A CELL PHONE. BUT IT'S A, A REGULAR, A REGULAR PHONE. [Pop captions down]
Leo: IT'S THE, THE VOLUME ROCKER. WE KIND OF KNEW THAT. YOU KIND OF GAVE THAT WAY WITH THE ICON ON IT.
Sean Carruthers: OH I'LL HANG UP.
Leo: GET OFF THE PHONE CARRUTHERS! LET'S GET ANOTHER CALL IN HERE. WHAT DO YOU SAY KATE ABRAHAM? WHO DO YOU HAVE FOR US TODAY?
Kate: THIS IS MICHAEL FROM RED DEER IN ALBERTA.
Leo: WOW MICHAEL MUST BE A MODEL OR SOMETHING. HELLO MICHAEL.
Michael: HOW YOU DOING?
Leo: YOU, WOW THAT IS A GREAT PICTURE.
Michael: OH THANKS.
Leo: WHO TOOK THAT OF YOU?
Michael: WELL MY DAUGHTER DID. WE WERE ON A CRUISE IN THE MEDITERREAN LAST SUMMER SO.
Leo: MAN YOU LOOK RELAXED, HAPPY. [Pop captions up]
Michael: YEAH IT MUST HAVE BEEN A TOUCHED UP PICTURE HUH? [Leo laughing]
Michael: SUCKING IT, SUCKING IT IN A LITTLE BIT.
Leo: WHAT CAN I DO FOR YOU MICHAEL?
Michael: WELL I'M A DENTIST WITH A WEIRD LITTLE LOGO THAT I HAVE ON KILLERTOOTHACHE.COM.
Leo: OH LET ME, LET ME GO SEE IT REAL QUICK HERE. [Pop captions down]
Leo: KILLERTOOTHACHE.COM HUH? OKAY.
Michael: AND IT'S AGAIN ITS A LITTLE SWOLLEN FACED CARTOON CHARACTER.
Leo: MMM-HMM.
Michael: AND I'D LIKE TO DEVELOP IT INTO LIKE A LITTLE ANIMATION GUY THAT CAN DANCE AROUND THE WEBSITE OR DEVELOP A, A CARTOON SERIES OF SOME SORT.
Leo: WHAT A GREAT IDEA.
Michael: AND I THOUGHT WELL I TALKED TO MY COMPUTER CONSULTANT. HE SUGGESTED THE 3D STUDIO MAC'S SOFTWARE PROGRAM.
Leo: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. [Laughs]
Michael: AND AGAIN THEY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT SO I JUST WANTED YOUR ADVICE.
Leo: YEAH I WOULDN'T, I WOULDN'T DO THAT.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. THAT IS A 3D DESIGN PROGRAM THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO MAKE IT HIM INTO WITH, WITH SOME EFFORT INTO A 3D CHARACTER.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: AND IT IS IN FACT OFTEN USED BY VERY HIGHEND MOVIE STUDIOS AND SO FORTH. BUT IT IS NOT UM SOMETHING I WOULD RECOMMEND FOR YOU. THERE'S, THERE'S TWO THINGS YOU CAN DO. IF YOU JUST WANT A GUY WITH A SWOLLEN CHEEK GOING AH AND YOU WANT TO HAVE A LITTLE ANIMATION. ARE YOU AN ARTIST? DID YOU DO THE GRAPHIC?
Michael: WELL I, I DREW HIM ORIGINALLY BUT THEN THEY TOOK IT AND TURNED IT INTO A, A COMPUTER.
Leo: OKAY. SO YOU SKETCHED IT OUT.
Michael: YEAH I DID THAT A FEW YEARS AGO.
Leo: SO IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE HANDY WITH A PEN IT'S AN EASY THING TO DO TO MAKE WHAT WE CALL AN ANIMATED GIF. AND, AND THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF ANIMATIONS ON THE WEB ARE JUST ANIMATED GIF, GIFS. YOU KNOW IT'S A, IT'S A SIMPLE GRAPHIC THAT HAS MULTIPLE FRAMES IN THE GRAPHIC. AH SO WHEN YOU SEE YOU KNOW THOSE ICONS ON THE INTERNET OF THINGS OF MAILBOXES YOU KNOW OPENING UP AND THINGS COMING OUT.
Michael: RIGHT.
Leo: OR YOU KNOW DANCING BEARS AND SO FORTH. I CAN'T GET, I, I AM HAVING THE WORST LUCK HERE WITH BROWSERS. NOT IT'S NOT THE THIS NOW IT WON'T EVEN LAUNCH SO I CAN'T GO ANYWHERE. [Laughs]
Leo: OH I TELL YOU. LET ME OH YOU KNOW WHAT? LET'S TRY OPERA. WHAT DO YOU SAY? ACTUALLY IT LOOKS LIKE MY WHOLE COMPUTER IS JUST KIND OF THINKING. NEVER HAD THAT HAPPEN TO YOU? YOUR COMPUTER DECIDES TO THINK. HOW DARE IT! ANYWAY UM, YOU COULD TAKE THE I WAS GONNA SHOW YOUR CUTE ILLUSTRATION AND I WILL AS SOON AS THIS LAUNCHES.
Michael: OKAY. [Pop captions up]
Leo: BUT IF YOU TAKE THE ILLUSTRATION AND THEN YOU MIGHT MODIFY IT SLIGHTLY FOR YOU KNOW HIS EYEBROWS GO UP YOU KNOW THIS IS ANIMATING. AH YOU MAKE A NUMBER OF FRAMES. YOU DON'T NEED TOO MANY FRAMES. FOUR OR FIVE DEPENDING ON HOW ELABORATE IT IS. AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF GREAT PROGRAMS, GIF ANIMATION PROGRAMS. [Pop captions down]
Leo: SOME FREE, SOME VERY INEXPENSIVE.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT. AND BASICALLY THE WAY THEY WORK IS YOU JUST PUT THE FRAMES IN ONE BY ONE AND YOU SAY CREATE A GIF. NOW YOU'VE GOT AN IMAGE YOU CAN PUT ON A WEBPAGE. BUT THAT'S VERY SIMPLE ANIMATION. HE'S NOT GONNA BE OH THERE IT IS. OH LOOK AT THAT. OH HE'S CUTE. OH HE'S CUTE. SO THAT'S A VERY SIMPLE PAGE, AH AN ANIMATION. SO FOR INSTANCE THAT CHEEK COULD THROB.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: IT WOULDN'T REQUIRE A LOT OF WORK OR THE PHONE CAN MOVE UP AND DOWN. BUT THAT'S NOT GONNA GIVE YOU A CART, YOU KNOW A CARTOON-LIKE YOU KNOW A, A, A CARTOON TO BE ANIMATION. [Both talking at once]
Michael: SO -- WEBSITE AND SHOW THINGS THAT WOULD BE AT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT LEVEL RIGHT?
Leo: YEAH AND FOR THAT THE ABSOLUTE PROGRAM TO USE IS FLASH.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: FROM MACROMEDIA. IT NOT 3D STUDIO MAC'S. IT'S WAY TOO COMPLICATED. WITH FLASH YOU CAN TAKE THAT LITTLE GUY MAKE SLIGHT MODIFICATIONS AND FLASH IS REALLY AN ANIMATION TOOL. YOU KNOW WE'VE, WE'VE DONE SO MANY SEGMENTS ON THIS SHOW WITH OUR FRIEND MIKE HOAG. IF YOU GO TO JINXTHEBLACKCAT.COM FOR INSTANCE. I WOULD IF I COULD BUT I MY COMPUTER'S DEAD. UM IF YOU GO TO JINXTHEBLACKCAT.COM FOR INSTANCE YOU'LL SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO. MAYBE YOU CAN PULL THAT UP FOR ME WHOEVER IS PULLING UP. KATE, KATE CAN YOU PULL UP JINXTHEBLACKCAT.COM? YOU'LL SEE WHAT CAN BE DONE AND, AND VERY SIMPLE FLASH ANIMATION. IN FACT WE HAVE ON OUR WEBSITE WE HAVE A NUMBER OF ARTICLES BY MIKE ABOUT DOING THIS. AND WE'RE EVEN AH WE'RE GONNA HAVE MORE PEOPLE COME IN AND, AND SHOW YOU HOW TO DO THIS. SO WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU, YOU'LL TAKE THAT LITTLE GUY. YOU'LL MODIFY IT SLIGHTLY AND FLASH WILL DO WHAT'S CALLED THE TWEENING. IT'S NOT COMING UP EITHER. WE'RE HAVING THE WORST TROUBLE. THE INTERNET, DON'T YOU LOVE THE INTERNET? IT'S GREAT WHEN IT WORKS. [Both talking at once]
Leo: AND YOU'RE RUNNING VERY SLOWLY TODAY. ANYWAY JACOB TRAN WHO COMES IN AND DOES SOME, SOME FLASH TEACHING ON OUR SHOW TOO IS ANOTHER GUY, JACOBTRAN.COM. YOU KNOW MICHAEL THESE AREN'T GONNA BE THAT, IT'S NOT GONNA BE SUPER EASY. YOU'RE GONNA BE LEARNING A NEW PROGRAM. THERE'S THE JINX THE BLACK CAT. AND SEE JINX IS, IS EXACTLY LIKE YOUR GUY WITH THE SWOLLEN CHEEK. RIGHT NOW HE'S JUST A STATIC IMAGE.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: BUT HE'S STARTING TO LOAD UP AND BECAUSE IT'S FLASH IT NORMALLY LOADS FASTER THAN THIS. OUR, OUR WEB CONNECTION SEEMS TO BE DEAD. AND THAT MIGHT BE THE 18 DIFFERENT VIDEO FEEDS WE'RE SENDING OUT FOR THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW. BUT AH HE WILL COME ALIVE IN JUST A SECOND. YOU'LL SEE HE'LL MOVE AND SO FORTH. AND IT'S, AND IT'S FLASH MAKES THIS VERY EASY TO DO. 3D STUDIO MACS WOULD DO IT BUT WITH A LOT MORE EFFORT. AND IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY ANIMATION TOOLS REALLY BUILT INTO IT. YOU'D THEN HAVE TO GO TO SOMETHING DESIGNED FOR ANIMATING. IT'S REALLY JUST DESIGNED FOR MAKING A 3D IMAGE OUT OF IT.
Michael: OKAY.
Leo: SO FLASH IS THE PROGRAM YOU WANT I THINK.
Michael: OKAY I'LL TELL HIM THAT. I'LL LOOK INTO THAT.
Leo: YEAH. AND, AND ARE YOU GONNA BE DOING THIS OR IS HE OR?
Michael: NO I'D HAVE TO GET THEM TO DO IT. I'M JUST A BEGINNER AT THIS KIND OF STUFF SO.
Leo: THERE YOU GO. LOOK JINX IS COMING ALIVE RIGHT NOW. SEE? AND ALL OF THIS IS JUST SIMPLE FLASH. IT'S NOT DIFFICULT AND, AND IT REALLY CAN BE USED IN SO MANY WONDERFUL WAYS. AND THE NICE THING ABOUT FLASH IS ITS LIGHTWEIGHT. IT PLAYS IT BACK ON THE WEB. IT GOES WELL ON A WEBSITE. SO IT WOULD BE VERY EASY FOR YOU TO GET THAT LITTLE TOOTHACHE GUY TO YOU KNOW SAY MAKE A CALL OR YOU CAN HAVE AUDIO. MAKE A CALL RIGHT NOW, ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
Michael: SOUNDS GOOD.
Leo: OKAY MICHAEL.
Michael: I APPRECIATE THAT AND THANKS VERY MUCH.
Leo: NICE TO TALK TO YOU. ANIMATED GIF FOR THE SIMPLE STUFF, FLASH FOR THE MORE ELABORATE.
Michael: AWESOME.
Leo: TAKE CARE.
Michael: OKAY THANK YOU. TALK TO YOU LATER.
Leo: THANKS FOR CALLING. WE APPRECIATE IT.
Michael: BYE-BYE.
Leo: ALL RIGHT LET'S TAKE A BREAK. COMING BACK WE'RE GONNA TRIM THE FAT ON YOUR MAC'S HARD DRIVE WITH RICK MACMERC. [Pop captions up]
Leo: YAEGER ALSO COMING UP, BILL MACEWEN ON ALTERNATIVE WORKSPACES. WE DON'T WANT TO BE STUCK IN AN UGLY SPACE DO WE? RIGHT NOW THOUGH IT'S TIME TO TAKE OUR QUICK QUIZ QUESTION OF THE DAY. [Blank for boards]
Leo: THAT'S THE KIND OF MEMORY IN YOUR CAMERA RIGHT? IS IT -- [Blank for boards]
Leo: GET TO THE WEBSITE. I LIKE THAT. I THINK IT'S A TEMPORAL ANOMALY ACTUALLY. GET TO THE WEBSITE. GIVE US YOUR BEST GUESS. I THINK YOU CAN GUESS THIS ONE PRETTY WELL AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHEN "THE LAB WITH LEO" CONTINUES. [MUSIC] [Pop captions down] [Commercial break] [MUSIC]
Leo: THE WAY WE WORK IS ACTUALLY A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF OUR LIFE. WE SPEND A LOT OF TIME AT LEAST EIGHT HOURS A DAY IN A WORKSPACE AND THINGS HAVE CHANGED SO MUCH THAT THE, THE TRADITIONAL WORKSPACES MAY NOT BE WORKING AS WELL. THE IDEA OF GOING TO A BIG OFFICE BUILDING OR WORKING ON A FACTORY FLOOR MAY NOT MAKE A LOT OF SENSE IF YOU'RE A WRITER OR A WEBSITE DESIGNER OR A DEVELOPER. WITH US RIGHT NOW BILL MACEWEN HE IS AN ENTREPRENEUR LIVING IN VANCOUVER AND IS ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THIS WHAT'S CALLED THE COWORKING MOVEMENT.
Bill MacEwen: THAT'S RIGHT.
Leo: IN FACT YOU'VE GOT YOUR OWN COWORKING PLACE CALLED WORKSPACE. SO WHAT IS COWORKING BILL? [Pop captions up]
Bill MacEwen: COWORKING IS ALL OF US GETTING OUT OF SORT OF OUR TRADITIONAL WORK ENVIRONMENTS, GETTING OUT OF THE HOME OFFICE. GETTING OUT OF YOU KNOW THE CUBICLES.
Leo: THE CUBICLES.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: ACCH. [Pop captions down]
Bill MacEwen: GOT TO GET OUT OF THE CUBICLE.
Leo: CAUSE NOBODY LIKES A CUBICLE.
Bill MacEwen: NO, NO. WE GOT TO GET RID OF THOSE.
Leo: YEAH.
Bill MacEwen: SO THAT'S WHAT COWORKING IS ALL ABOUT, GETTING INTO A BETTER SPACE. SOMEWHERE COOL, FUNKY LIKE A CAFE OR EVEN A CORNER OF SOMEONE ELSE'S OFFICE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE THAT YOU ENJOY WORKING WITH.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: YOU'RE KIND OF HANGING OUT AND MAKING IT KIND OF LIKE A WORK CLUB.
Leo: THIS WORKS PARTICULARLY WELL FOR INDEPENDENTS, SELF- EMPLOYED PEOPLE. [Pop captions up]
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: ALTHOUGH I NOTICED THAT A LOT OF COMPANIES NOW ARE DOING THIS KIND OF THING FOR THEIR SALES FORCE FOR INSTANCE. THEY'LL HAVE A CENTRAL PLACE. NOBODY HAS A DESK PER SAY BUT YOU CAN COME IN AND USE IT --
Bill MacEwen: YEAH, SURE.
Leo: AS YOU NEED IT. [Pop captions down]
Bill MacEwen: ABSOLUTELY I MEAN ALL COMPANIES I THINK THAT ARE FORWARD THINKING HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT YOU KNOW SETTING UP A BIG CUBICLE FIRM ISN'T REALLY THE BEST PLACE.
Leo: DOES NOT WORK YEAH.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH IT'S, IT'S NOT THE BEST WAY TO INSPIRE INNOVATION IN YOUR EMPLOYEES.
Leo: RIGHT, RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: IT'S NOT THE WAY TO BE HAPPY EITHER. SO YOU KNOW WE'VE DEFINITELY SEEN A MOVEMENT IN, IN LARGER COMPANIES WHERE THEY KIND OF YOU KNOW LIKE THE GOOGLEPLEX.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: YOU KNOW WE SAW PHOTOS OF THAT WHEN PEOPLE DO TOURS AND IT JUST LOOKS LIKE THIS BEAUTIFUL PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN JUST HANG OUT.
Leo: YOU JUST WANT TO BE THERE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH EXACTLY.
Leo: YEAH.
Bill MacEwen: AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO WITH COWORKING.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: IS JUST CREATE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO BE.
Leo: I FIRST BECAME AWARE OF THIS AH ACTUALLY AMBER MAC TOLD ME ABOUT THE COMMONS IN PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.
Leo: IT'S THE QUEEN STREET COMMONS.
Bill MacEwen: THE QUEEN STREET COMMONS AND THAT'S HOW I HEARD ABOUT IT TOO.
Leo: YEAH.
Bill MacEwen: YOU KNOW I THINK THEY WERE REALLY -- [Pop captions up]
Leo: THIS IS BRILLIANT.
Bill MacEwen: THE FIRST GUYS TO GET GOING.
Leo: I THINK IT WAS SILVER ARMS THE WEB DESIGN COMPANY THAT WAS ONE OF THE COMPANIES INVOLVED IN THIS.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: SO, SO WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? HOW DOES IT WORK?
Bill MacEwen: WELL THE QUEEN STREET COMMONS BEING THE FIRST EXAMPLE WHAT THEY DID IS THEY BOUGHT THIS HOUSE. [Pop captions down]
Bill MacEwen: AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT. I THINK IT WAS KIND OF AN INVESTMENT. SO WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING IS THEY STARTED TO SELL MEMBERSHIPS TO THIS SPACE.
Leo: MMM-HMM.
Bill MacEwen: AND THEY RENOVATED IT.
Leo: IT'S LIKE A CLUB.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH IT WAS TOTALLY LIKE A CLUB. BUT A CLUB FOR WORKING.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: AND A CLUB FOR HANGING OUT AND TALKING ABOUT THE INTERNET.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: AND TALKING ABOUT TECHNOLOGY.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: AND, AND KIND OF INNOVATING. SO WE WENT OUT THERE AND CHECKED IT OUT. LIKE FLEW OUT TO THIS PLACE CAUSE I WAS JUST SO ENTHRALLED BY THIS CONCEPT.
Leo: YEAH RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: SO I WENT OUT AND IT JUST SEEMED SO COOL. I MEAN IT WAS SO SIMPLE. IT WAS JUST LIKE A LIVING ROOM YOU KNOW WITH A FEW DESKS AND STUFF. BUT YOU KNOW ONCE WE GOT IN THERE AND FELT THE VIBE AND FELT THE ATMOSPHERE THAT YOU KNOW THAT COWORKING MOVEMENT HAD CREATED IN THE SPACE WE WERE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT.
Leo: CAN YOU SHOW US WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE? WHAT A, WHAT A, WHAT A TYPICAL SPACE WOULD LIKE LIKE?
Bill MacEwen: YEAH SURE.
Leo: IS THIS YOUR SPACE, WORKSPACE?
Bill MacEwen: THIS IS WORKSPACE RIGHT HERE.
Leo: OKAY.
Bill MacEwen: THIS IS OUR WEBSITE. UM HERE'S SOME PHOTOS FROM FLICKR SO WE'VE GOT YOU KNOW SOFT MOLO WALL AND KIND OF SOME COUCHES AND STUFF IN THERE.
Leo: BUT THAT'S NOT ANYBODY'S PARTICULAR AREA. THAT'S JUST, THAT'S JUST SOME - -
Bill MacEwen: NO, NO THAT'S RIGHT. I MEAN WHAT WE DO IS WE, IS WE SHARE THAT WORKSPACE. SO -- [Both talking at once]
Leo: SO YOU PAY A MEMBERSHIP FEE? HOW DOES IT, HOW DOES IT WORK? [Pop captions up]
Bill MacEwen: YEAH YOU PAY A MEMBERSHIP JUST LIKE AT A CLUB.
Leo: OKAY.
Bill MacEwen: OR AT A FITNESS CENTER YOU GO AND YOU PAY BASED ON HOW OFTEN YOU WANT TO USE THE SPACE. SO YOU CAN COME IN ONCE A WEEK OR SEVEN DAYS A WEEK --
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: OR YOU KNOW HOW OFTEN YOU LIKE.
Leo: AND, AND HOW UM WHAT KIND OF AMENITIES DO YOU GET? [Pop captions down]
Leo: I MEAN HOW MUCH LIKE A REAL OFFICE IS IT?
Bill MacEwen: WELL I MEAN YOU GET GREAT WI-FI, GREAT CON ACTIVITY.
Leo: WE COULD USE THAT HERE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH APPARENTLY.
Leo: LET'S ALL MOVE TO WORKSPACE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH YOU SHOULD. UM SO YEAH THERE'S GREAT CON ACTIVITY. THERE'S GOOD DESKS, GOOD ATMOSPHERE, GREAT VIEW. THERE'S MEETING ROOMS THERE. WE'VE GOT VOIP PHONES. WE'VE GOT A KITCHEN AND WE'VE GOT A FULL SERVICE COFFEEBAR SO WE DO LIKE GREAT CAPPUCCINOS AND EVERYTHING YEAH.
Leo: YOU KNOW WHAT'S IMPORTANT. [Laughs]
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: IT'S THE COFFEE! SO TYPICALLY HOW MUCH DOES SOMEBODY SPEND FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
Bill MacEwen: AH AVERAGE PRICE IS AROUND $300 A MONTH.
Leo: WHICH IS A LOT LESS THAN OFFICE RENT RIGHT?
Bill MacEwen: OH YEAH. OH YEAH THAT'S THE IDEA. WE WANT ANYONE TO COME DOWN HERE. ANYONE WHO'S THINKING OF YOU KNOW GETTING OUT OF THEIR HOME OFFICE. WE WANT THIS TO BE AN EASY STEP.
Leo: RIGHT. IS IT YOU SAID IN THE CASE OF QUEEN STREET COMMONS SOMEBODY BOUGHT A HOUSE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: SO CLEARLY THERE'S SOMEBODY WHO'S STARTING THIS IS IT, IS IT A BUSINESS? IS IT A CO-OP?
Bill MacEwen: WELL I THINK IN THE CASE OF THE QUEEN STREET COMMONS IT WAS A CO-OP. IN OUR CASE --
Leo: BUT SOMEBODY HAD THE CAPITAL TO BUY THE HOUSE.
Bill MacEwen: SOMEONE'S GOT TO DO IT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: AND THAT'S KIND OF THE PROBLEM WITH COWORKING RIGHT NOW IS WE'VE GOT A LOT OF INDEPENDENTS WHO ARE WANTING TO SEE THIS SORT OF THING COME ABOUT AND WANTING TO CREATE IT BUT YOU KNOW --
Leo: I WOULD LOVE IT.
Bill MacEwen: SURE.
Leo: AS SOMEBODY MOST OF THE, MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I'M DOING "THE LAB" --
Bill MacEwen: RIGHT.
Leo: I'M WORKING IN A SMALL OFFICE BY MYSELF AS I MENTIONED THAT GARRET IN THE BED AND BREAKFAST.
Bill MacEwen: RIGHT.
Leo: AND YOU GET LONELY IN THERE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH TOTALLY.
Leo: AND PLUS YOU DON'T GET THE, THE INTERPLAY OF IDEAS THAT YOU GET WORKING WITH COLLEAGUES.
Bill MacEwen: RIGHT THAT'S VERY TRUE.
Leo: I'M NOT SURE I'D WANT TO BE THERE ALL THE TIME. BUT IT'D BE GREAT TO HAVE SOMEWHERE TO GO THAT'S ALMOST LIKE A LIBRARY. WHERE YOU CAN GO AND YOU CAN TALK, YOU CAN HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH TOTALLY.
Leo: YOU'VE GOT YOUR, YOU'VE GOT YOUR, MOST PEOPLE HAVE LAPTOPS NOW SO YOU KIND OF BRING YOUR WORK WITH YOU WHEREVER YOU GO.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: A LOT OF PEOPLE WORKING IN COFFEE BARS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD FOR THE SAME REASON RIGHT?
Bill MacEwen: AND YOU KNOW ONE THING THAT I RECOMMEND PEOPLE DO IS TO CHECK OUT THE COWORKING WIKI, AH COWORKING.PBWIKI.COM. [Pop captions up]
Bill MacEwen: YOU CAN GO ON THERE AND YOU CAN JUST SORT OF YOU KNOW SELECT WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
Leo: AH.
Bill MacEwen: IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN IT.
Leo: I'VE GOT TO DO THIS.
Bill MacEwen: IF YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO THE OWNER. YEAH.
Leo: I'VE WANTED TO START ONE OF THESE IN MY OWN TOWN OF PETALUMA.
Bill MacEwen: THIS IS WHERE YOU GO.
Leo: YEAH AND I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT DO YOU CHARGE? [Pop captions down]
Leo: HOW DO YOU, HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO MAKE IT A VIABLE ENTITY? SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING THIS AS A BUSINESS.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING IT AS A CO-OP.
Bill MacEwen: THAT'S RIGHT.
Leo: IS I MEAN IS YOUR WORKSPACE A BUSINESS?
Bill MacEwen: IT IS A BUSINESS, YEAH. YEAH IT'S SOMETHING I OWN.
Leo: SO CAN IT BECOME A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS TOO?
Bill MacEwen: YEAH WELL WE'RE SEEING THAT. WE'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS ABOUT TEN MONTHS.
Leo: REALLY?
Bill MacEwen: NOW WE'VE GOT 55 MEMBERS IN VANCOUVER, ALL GREAT PEOPLE.
Leo: IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE HEALTHCLUB MODEL ISN'T IT?
Bill MacEwen: YEAH THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
Leo: AND YOU FIGURE NOT EVERYBODY'S GONNA BE IN THERE ALL THE TIME SO YOU CAN HAVE MORE MEMBERS THEN YOU --
Bill MacEwen: YEAH.
Leo: I MEAN 55 YOU PROBABLY -- [Both talking at once]
Bill MacEwen: YEAH WE DON'T HAVE 55 DESKS.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: THAT'S RIGHT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Bill MacEwen: BUT WE SELL YOU KNOW THE TIME WHERE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE THERE. WE ALWAYS GUARANTEE PEOPLE A SPACE.
Leo: DO YOU BOOK THEM IN?
Bill MacEwen: WE DON'T BOOK THEM IN BUT WE KNOW WHOSE SHOWING UP ON WHAT DAY.
Leo: OKAY.
Bill MacEwen: SO WE KIND OF GAUGE GENERALLY HOW BUSY THE SPACE IS GONNA BE.
Leo: FASCINATING STUFF.
Bill MacEwen: YEAH COOL.
Leo: YOU CAN LEARN MORE ON THE WIKI OR ON WORKSPACE'S WEBSITE. IS, IS IT WORKSPACE.?
Bill MacEwen: NO, IT'S ABETTERPLACETOWORK.COM. [Pop captions up]
Leo: ABETTERPLACETOWORK.COM I LIKE THAT. AND I, I'D LOVE TO SEE THESE ALL OVER THE WORLD. I THINK THIS IS A REALLY, A REALLY GREAT WAY TO REPLACE THE CUBICLE WITH SOMETHING THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY.
Bill MacEwen: COOL.
Leo: BILL MACEWEN THANK YOU FOR STOPPING BY AND TELLING US MORE ABOUT THIS. [Pop captions down]
Leo: I LIKE IT.
Bill MacEwen: OF COURSE.
Leo: YEAH NOW I WANT TO DO IT. MORE OF YOUR CALLS COMING UP. IT'S KIND OF WHAT "THE LAB" IS. [Pop captions up]
Leo: IT'S KIND OF YOU KNOW WE ALL FLOAT IN HERE WE USE THE EQUIPMENT AND, AND THEN WE LEAVE. MORE OF YOUR CALLS COMING UP IN JUST A LITTLE BIT. YOU STAY RIGHT HERE. [Pop captions down]
Leo: BUT I HAVE THE RED CLIPBOARD AND THE CUSTARD. [MUSIC] [Commercial break] [MUSIC]
Leo: WELCOME BACK TO "THE LAB". I'M LEO LAPORTE AND LET'S GET ANOTHER CALL. DON'T YOU THINK IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE KIND OF HAD A COWORKING ENVIRONMENT AND A -- I GUESS THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE HAVE HERE. PEOPLE WANDER IN AND WANDER OUT. [Both talking at once]
Kate: WORKING IN COFFEESHOPS.
Leo: OH THE COFFEE.
Kate: WORKING IN A COFFEESHOP WOULD BE GREAT.
Leo: THAT'S WHAT WE NEED. WE DO HAVE CUSTARD.
Kate: CUSTARD, WHICH IS GETTING WARMER BY THE MINUTE WHICH IS -- [Both laugh]
Leo: IS THAT GONNA, IS THAT GONNA SURVIVE THE HEAT?
Kate: I WOULDN'T BE EATING ANYMORE NOW.
Leo: REALLY? OH COME ON. IT'LL BE DELICIOUS. LET'S GET ANOTHER CALLER ON.
Kate: OKAY.
Leo: WHAT DO YOU SAY?
Kate: OKAY OUR LAST CALL OF THE DAY IS ANDRE FROM TORONTO IN ONTARIO.
Leo: I FIND THAT THE ASTRINGENCY OF THE RHUBARB COMBINES WITH THE TART TANGINESS OF THE CUSTARD TO GIVE IT A CREAMY MWAH, A JEUNE SE QUOIS. HELLO ANDRE HOW ARE YOU?
Andre: I'M ALL RIGHT. HOW ARE YOU LEO? [Pop captions up]
Leo: I'M GREAT. WELCOME TO "THE LAB".
Andre: I LOVE YOUR SET.
Leo: OH THANK YOU SIR. WE APPRECIATE IT. THANKS FOR WATCHING. WHAT CAN I DO FOR YOU TODAY?
Andre: ACTUALLY I WANTED TO KNOW IF THERE IS ANY WAY OF HIDING MY IP BEING SEEN IF I'M ON LIKE AN OPEN SOURCE PORT?
Leo: YOU'RE ON A WHAT KIND OF PORT? [Pop captions down]
Leo: OPEN SOURCE PORT?
Andre: YEAH LIKE IF I'M ON LIKE A --
Leo: YOU MEAN IF YOU'RE USING BITTORRENT? [Both talking at once]
Andre: A SECURE SITE YOU KNOW.
Leo: YOU'RE ON A SECURE SITE?
Andre: YES I'M SECURE LIKE A --
Leo: OKAY. WELL FIRST YOU, YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT. [Pop captions up]
Leo: EVERY TIME YOU SURF THE NET EVERYWHERE YOU GO YOUR ONE AND ONLY LONE UNIQUE IP ADDRESS, YOUR PHONE NUMBER ESSENTIALLY IS VISIBLE TO THAT SITE. IT'S JUST THE NATURE OF HOW THE INTERNET WORKS. AND MOST SITES RUN LOGS AND THEY CONSTANTLY KEEP TRACK OF WHOSE VISITING THEM. AND THAT'S JUST KIND OF HOW IT WORKS. UM THERE IT'S, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE WAS A RECENT LAWSUIT OF ONE OF THE FILE SHARING SERVICES. [Pop captions down]
Leo: ONE OF THE BITTORRENT SITES, THEY WANTED THE LOGS RIGHT. THEY WANTED TO KNOW WELL WHOSE BEEN USING YOU? AND GEE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BUT THOSE LOGS GET ERASED EVERY SINGLE DAY. SO MANY SITES PLACES LIKE THE PIRATESBAY, PIRATEBAY.ORG THEY'RE, THEY'RE NOT KEEPING ANY LOGS. BUT IN GENERAL YOU ARE VISIBLE TO THEM.
Andre: OKAY.
Leo: AND WHEN YOU USE BITTORRENT, BITTORRENT IS YOU KNOW ITS FUNNY THAT THE MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION IS SO UP IN ARMS OVER BITTORRENT BECAUSE IT'S REALLY A PRETTY BAD PIRACY MEDIUM. SINCE WHEN YOU USE BITTORRENT YOUR IP ADDRESS IS VISIBLE TO ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO SEE IT. YOU ARE VISIBLE AND THEY CAN TRACK YOU DOWN VIA YOUR IP ADDRESS. SO IF YOU WANT ANONYMITY ON THE NET YOU DO HAVE TO KIND OF JUMP THROUGH SOME HOOPS. THE NET IS NOT DESIGNED AROUND ANONYMITY.
Andre: OKAY.
Leo: AND WE'VE TALKED STEVE AND I HAVE TALKED WE IN FACT DID A WHOLE PODCAST ON ANONYMITY. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS. THERE ARE SOME I THINK GOOD REASONS TO HAVE ANONYMITY ON THE INTERNET. THERE, THERE IS A MOVE A FOOT RIGHT NOW TO REDESIGN THE INTERNET BECAUSE OF THE SECURITY ISSUES BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE VULNERABILITIES BECAUSE FRANKLY SOME OF THE FRAGILITY OF THE INTERNET. A NUMBER OF PEOPLE AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY HAVE STARTED THIS INITIATIVE BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD REDESIGN IT AS YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD WE DO DIFFERENTLY 30 YEARS LATER? AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY WANT TO, THEY, THEY TALK ABOUT IS THE IDEA OF ANONYMITY. UM CURRENTLY ON THE INTERNET IN ORDER TO GAIN ANONYMITY YOU HAVE TO USE BASICALLY PROXY SERVERS. YOU HAVE TO SURF TO A BEFORE YOU LET'S SAY YOU WANT TO GO TO PIRATEBAY.ORG.
Andre: ALL RIGHT.
Leo: IF YOU GO DIRECTLY TO PIRATEBAY.ORG AND THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE. SO IN ORDER TO HIDE YOURSELF YOU'LL HAVE TO GO THROUGH OTHER SERVERS, WHAT ARE CALLED PROXY SERVERS. AND GO THROUGH THEM IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU CAN'T, IT CAN'T BE TRACED BACK TO YOU. SO THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SYSTEMS THAT DO THIS. THERE'S COMMERCIAL ONES LIKE ANONYMIZER. AND THERE'S NON-COMMERCIAL ONES. THIS IS THE ONE THAT I PROBABLY WOULD RECOMMEND. IT'S CALLED THE ONION ROUTER OR TOR AND IT'S ACTUALLY SUPPORTED BY THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE AND I THINK RIGHTLY SO THAT THERE ARE SOME GOOD REASONS FOR ANONYMITY ON THE NET. IF YOU WANT TO BE A WHISTLEBLOWER FOR INSTANCE. IF YOU WANT TO YOU KNOW IF YOU'RE, IF YOU'RE YOU KNOW BEING ABUSED BY YOUR SPOUSE AND YOU WANT TO SEEK SOME HELP. THERE ARE SOME, THERE ARE TIMES WHEN ANONYMITY IS A NECESSITY. SO THIS IS IT, T-O-R, THE ONION ROUTER. IT'S AT T-O-R.E-F-F.ORG. YOU'LL DOWNLOAD SOME SOFTWARE. IT'S VERY COOL. THE WAY THIS WORKS IS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. AH IT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT I SAID BUT IT'S DONE IN A RANDOMIZED WAY SO THAT YOU NEVER KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU GET FROM ONE PLACE TO THE OTHER. AND NOBODY CAN FOLLOW YOU. IT, IT'S A VERY SOPHISTICATED TECHNIQUE. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS THE ONION, LAYERS OF THE ONION THEY SHOULD LISTEN TO OUR PODCAST ON THE TOR ROUTER THAT ON SECURITY NOW CAUSE IT'S WAY TOO COMPLICATED FOR THIS SHOW. I THINK WE TOOK AN HOUR TO EXPLAIN HOW IT WORKS. [Both laugh]
Leo: THERE'S ALSO COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE. I MENTIONED ANONYMIZER. THIS IS ACTUALLY A PIECE OF HARDWARE FROM A COMPANY CALLED PHANTOM TECHNOLOGIES. IT'S CALLED THE IPHANTOM. ITS A LITTLE PIECE OF HARDWARE DOES THE SAME THING. IT ANONYMIZES YOU WELL NOT EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. BUT, BUT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH A VPN TO THEIR SERVER SO AND THIS ANY VPN WOULD DO THE SAME THING. SO THAT THE IP ADDRESS THAT THE PIRATEBAY SEES IS NOT YOURS BUT IPHANTOM'S. NOW THE PROBLEM WITH DOING THIS WITH A BUSINESS IS SHOULD SOMEBODY COME TO THEM WITH A SUPBOEANA IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY THAT THEY KNOW AND ARE KEEPING LOGS AND WOULD DIVULGE YOUR IDENTITY. SO IT'S NOT 100% ANONYMITY BUT IT WOULD REQUIRE A COURT ORDER TO GET --
Andre: YEAH.
Leo: THAT INFORMATION AND THAT MAYBE OKAY FOR YOU. NOW THERE IS, THERE THAT'S THE KIND OF THE BASIC IDEA. WHEN YOU SURF THIS IS HOW YOU GET ANONYMITY. BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT YOUR, YOUR ADDRESS. FOR INSTANCE USING AN EMAIL CLIENT. [Pop captions up]
Steve Gibson: YEAH FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU NORMALLY USE AN EMAIL CLIENT YOUR CLIENT WILL HAVE ITS IP ADDRESS AT THE TIME YOU ORIGINATED EMAIL WILL BE PART OF THE EMAIL HEADERS.
Leo: IT'S IN THE EMAIL ITSELF?
Steve Gibson: IT'S ACTUALLY GOES, GOES WITH THE EMAIL. [Pop captions down]
Leo: SO IF I SEND SOMETHING FROM GMAIL TO YOU UNDER A FAKE NAME RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: WELL NOW YES. GOOGLEMAIL HAPPENS TO BE THE ONE THAT WE'VE FOUND -- [Both talking at once]
Leo: THEY DON'T DO IT.
Steve Gibson: WHICH DOES NOT APPEND YOUR IP ADDRESS TO YOUR HEADERS WHEREAS FOR EXAMPLE YAHOO AND HOTMAIL BOTH DO.
Leo: WELL THIS IS IMPORTANT. THIS IS GOOD TO KNOW. SO LET'S SAY YOU ARE A WHISTLEBLOWER. YOU SAY YOUR COMPANY HAS YOU KNOW YOU WORKED FOR A COMPANY CALLED LET'S SAY ENRON. AND YOU FELT LIKE THEY WERE STEALING THINGS, THEY WERE ACTING INAPPROPRIATELY AND YOU WANTED TO BE A WHISTLEBLOWER BUT YOU DIDN'T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE. SO IF YOU WENT TO, IF YOU WENT TO YAHOOMAIL AND YOU CREATED A NEW ACCOUNT WHISTLEBLOWER AT YAHOOMAIL.COM AND SENT IT OUT THEY'D KNOW WHO YOU WERE.
Steve Gibson: WELL NOW THE, THE OTHER THING TOO IS IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND OR, OR TO FACTOR INTO THE ANSWER OF, OF THIS QUESTION WHO IT IS HE'S TRYING TO KEEP HIS ANONYMITY FROM? FOR EXAMPLE IF HE'S A CABLE MODEM USER HE CAN UNPLUG HIS CABLE MODEM AND ROUTER, WAIT A COUPLE OF HOURS AND THEN WHEN HE RECONNECTS THEM HE WILL ALMOST ALWAYS GET A NEW IP.
Leo: BUT OF COURSE THE CABLE COMPANY KNOWS WHO YOU ARE.
Steve Gibson: SO YEAH AND THAT'S, AND THAT'S MY POINT IS THAT IF, IF YOU HAD AT A, AT A FEDERAL LEVEL IF SOMEONE NEEDED TO KNOW --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: WHO WOULD HAVE THIS IP AT THIS TIME THAT COULD BE DETERMINED. BUT IF HE'S TRYING FOR EXAMPLE, FOR EXAMPLE TO HIDE FROM YOU KNOW RANDOM SCRIPT KIDDIES OR OTHER HACKERS AND THINGS OUT THERE --
Leo: RIGHT.
Steve Gibson: THE IP ADDRESS HE HAD CAN BE CHANGED BY, BY YOU KNOW DELIBERATELY WANTING TO DO SO.
Leo: OKAY DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ANDRE?
Andre: OKAY, YES IT DOES.
Leo: HEY I'M REALLY GLAD YOU CALLED THANK YOU. I WON'T PRY AND FIND OUT WHY YOU WANT TO BE ANONYMOUS. BUT THERE IS IN GENERAL THE, THE WHOLE STORY ABOUT ANONYMITY.
Steve Gibson: WE SUPPORT THE IDEA.
Leo: YEAH WE ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT THE IDEA OF ANONYMITY. THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD REASONS AND THERE ARE ALSO LOTS OF BAD REASONS TO BE ANONYMOUS AND I'M TRUSTING YOU'RE USING A GOOD ONE. WE'RE GONNA TAKE A BREAK. [Pop captions up]
Leo: WHEN WE COME BACK IN JUST A LITTLE BIT RICK MAC MARK YAEGER IS HERE TO TRIM THE FAT ON YOUR MAC. [Pop captions down]
Leo: I, I LIKE MY FAT. BEFORE WE GO ANYWHERE THOUGH TIME FOR QUICK QUIZ QUESTION OF THE DAY. [Pop captions up]
Leo: WHICH PHYSICS PROCESS IS USED TO ERASE THAT KIND OF MEMORY THAT FLASH MEMORY YOU HAVE ON YOUR CAMERA? IS IT -- [Blank for boards]
Leo: OR MY FAVOURITE A TEMPORAL ANOMALY. HMM GO TO THE WEBSITE. GIVE US THE ANSWER. WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT WHEN "THE LAB" CONTINUES. [MUSIC] [Pop captions down] [Commercial break] [MUSIC] [Pop captions up]
Leo: WELCOME BACK TO "THE LAB". BEFORE THE BREAK WE ASKED -- [Blank for boards]
Leo: WELL ITS NOT LIKE A HARD DRIVE IT'S NOT MAGNETISM. AND I DON'T THINK IT'S A TEMPORAL ANOMALY BECAUSE WELL FRANKLY WE HAVEN'T INVENTED TIME MACHINES YET. QUANTUM TUNNELING BELIEVE IT OR NOT. THAT IS PRETTY INTERESTING. [Pop captions down]
Leo: WOW. I HAD NO -- DID YOU KNOW THAT?
Rick Yaeger: I HAD NO IDEA.
Leo: NO IDEA. [Both talking at once]
Leo: I WAS GONNA SAY PHASE INVERSION. LITTLE DID I KNOW.
Rick Yaeger: WHAT DO I KNOW?
Leo: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS RICK YAEGER OF MACMERC.COM. WHAT IS IT? EVERY TIME YOU COME IN YOU'VE GOT A NEW MACMERC T-SHIRT.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH.
Leo: WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE. NOW THAT'S OPTION SHIFT K?
Rick Yaeger: OPTION SHIFT K.
Leo: WHAT DOES THAT DO?
Rick Yaeger: IF YOU TYPE IT INTO A, A TEXT EDITOR IT BRINGS UP THE APPLE LOGO.
Leo: WHO KNEW?
Rick Yaeger: SO.
Leo: THESE ARE GOOD T- SHIRTS. SO THAT'S I NEVER, I CAN NEVER REMEMBER THAT. THAT'S THE OPTION.
Rick Yaeger: OPTION.
Leo: SHIFT IS OBVIOUS.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH.
Leo: AND K. OKAY.
Rick Yaeger: SO APPLE LOGO T-SHIRT WITHOUT THE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.
Leo: AVAILABLE OH I GET IT. IT'S A LOGO I, AH AVAILABLE AT MACMERC.COM?
Rick Yaeger: YES.
Leo: YEAH OKAY. I LIKE THAT. I MIGHT GET THAT ONE. THAT'S FOR TOTALLY OBSCURE.
Rick Yaeger: VERY OBSCURE. [Leo laughing]
Rick Yaeger: YOU WALK INTO ANY, ANY COMPUTER STORE, YOU WALK INTO THE PC DEPARTMENT --
Leo: THEY'RE NOT GONNA GET IT.
Rick Yaeger: AND THEY'LL STILL SERVE YOU.
Leo: NO, YEAH I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS MAN IS. [Pop captions up]
Leo: IT LOOKS LIKE ALIEN WRITING.
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT.
Leo: LET'S TALK ABOUT TRIMMING THE FAT ON YOUR MAC, EVERY THIS IS TRUE ON ALL COMPUTERS.
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT.
Leo: THEY YOU KNOW NO MATTER HOW BIG THEY MAKE THE HARD DRIVE WE INSTANTLY FILL IT UP. [Pop captions down]
Leo: I CALL, I CALL IT THE PORTSLAW. WE INSTANTLY FILL UP 30%, NO 60% OF IT JUST BOOM LIKE THAT RIGHT AWAY. [Both talking at once]
Rick Yaeger: WELL WHAT DO YOU GET? 160 GIGABYTES ON THE NEW MACBOOK PROS.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: THEN YOU PUT ON GARAGE BAND WITH ALL THOSE LOOPS.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: IDVD WITH ALL OF THE TEMPLATES.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: ADOBE CS3.
Leo: IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG.
Rick Yaeger: THIS HUGE --
Leo: NOT TO MENTION YOUR IPOD, WHICH IS A 60 GIG DRIVE. [Pop captions up]
Rick Yaeger: YEAH.
Leo: THAT FILLS UP 60 GIGS RIGHT THERE.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH SO IT'S GONE.
Leo: IT'S GONE.
Rick Yaeger: THEN YOU'VE GOT THOSE THEY, THEY TOUTED OS10 AS HAVING THESE NIFTY LITTLE PROCESSORS THAT GO ON IN, IN THE BACKGROUND WHILE, WHILE YOU'RE SLEEPING. [Pop captions down]
Rick Yaeger: THAT YOU KNOW OPTIMIZE YOUR HARD DRIVE AND ALL THESE THINGS.
Leo: RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: BUT THEY CAN ONLY WORK IF THERE'S ENOUGH ROOM FOR THEM TO --
Leo: OH INTERESTING.
Rick Yaeger: TO SHUFFLE IT AROUND AND OPTIMIZE IT AROUND.
Leo: AND WE'LL SO LET'S MAKE SOME ROOM. WHAT DO WE DO?
Rick Yaeger: WELL WHAT WE DO IS FIRST WE HAVE TO FIND OUT WHERE EVERYTHING WENT.
Leo: YEAH.
Rick Yaeger: AND SO I FOUND THIS FREEWARE APPLICATION CALLED WHATSIZE.
Leo: WHATSIZE. OH I LIKE THIS. [Pop captions up]
Rick Yaeger: SO IT GOES AND SCANS YOUR HARD DRIVE AND FINDS OUT WHERE ALL --
Leo: WHERE ALL THE FAT FILES ARE.
Rick Yaeger: WHERE EVERYTHING WENT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: AND ONCE IT'S DONE YOU'LL FIND OUT THAT IT'S USUALLY YOUR USER FOLDER.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: YOUR LIBRARY WITHIN THERE. BUT THERE, THERE ARE CERTAIN LIKE DUMPING GROUNDS THAT, THAT YOU PUT STUFF AND -- [Pop captions down]
Leo: THERE'S A GOOD MAC PROGRAM DISK INVENTORY X --
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT.
Leo: THAT DOES IT GRAPHICALLY WITH COLOURS TOO.
Rick Yaeger: COLOURS ARE NICE.
Leo: DOES IT WITH PRETTY COLOURS. BUT THE MAIN POINT IS FIND OUT WHAT'S FAT.
Rick Yaeger: FIND OUT WHAT'S --
Leo: WHAT YOU CAN DELETE THOUGH?
Rick Yaeger: WELL THAT'S THE THING. YOU DON'T WANT TO GO WILLY NILLY DELETING THINGS OUT OF YOUR LIBRARY CAUSE WELL --
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: THOSE ARE IMPORTANT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: UM THERE'S A, THERE'S A ON MY, ON MY COMPUTER THERE'S A TWO-GIG FILE CALLED SLEEP IMAGE.
Leo: I THINK YOU CAN THROW THAT OUT.
Rick Yaeger: YOU CAN'T.
Leo: YOU CAN'T?
Rick Yaeger: WELL IT YOU CAN BUT --
Leo: BUT JUST DON'T WAKE UP --
Rick Yaeger: WELL IT, IT MAKES SURE THAT YOUR COMPUTER'S STILL DOING WHAT IT WAS DOING WHEN IT WENT TO SLEEP.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: IN CASE YOU HAVE A POWER OUTAGE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: IT'S THERE FOR SAFETY REASONS.
Leo: ALL RIGHT, OKAY.
Rick Yaeger: SO -- [Both talking at once]
Leo: DON'T DELETE IT. WHAT ELSE YOU GOT? WE GOT TWO MINUTES LEFT.
Rick Yaeger: OKAY. THE MY FAVOURITE IS HAZEL.
Leo: I LOVE THIS HAZEL. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN HAZEL.
Rick Yaeger: HAZEL.
Leo: NOW ARE YOU OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THIS SHOW?
Rick Yaeger: I AM BARELY --
Leo: YEAH I REMEMBER IT.
Rick Yaeger: OLD ENOUGH.
Leo: I CAN'T REMEMBER THE ACTRESS' NAME BUT SHE PLAYED A MAID.
Rick Yaeger: AHH --
Leo: BUT NOW YOU CAN GET HAZEL FOR YOUR COMPUTER.
Rick Yaeger: CHERYL BOOTH.
Leo: CHERYL BOOTH. SHIRLEY BOOTH.
Rick Yaeger: SHIRLEY BOOTH.
Leo: VERY GOOD, VERY GOOD.
Rick Yaeger: THERE YOU GO.
Leo: SHIRLEY BOOTH. YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: YES HAZEL FOR YOUR COMPUTER. THE ICON IS EVEN A, A LITTLE FEATHER DUSTER.
Leo: IS IT A LITTLE HAZEL?
Rick Yaeger: IT'S A LITTLE FEATHER DUSTER.
Leo: OH.
Rick Yaeger: SO --
Leo: WHAT DOES HAZEL DO?
Rick Yaeger: HAZEL GOES THROUGH YOUR FOLDERS PERIODICALLY AND LOOKS IN YOUR DOWNLOADS FOLDERS. [Pop captions up]
Rick Yaeger: AND SOFT, SOFTWARE FOLDERS, APPLICATIONS FOLDER, ANY FOLDER YOU WANT YOU TELL IT. WOULD YOU KEEP AN EYE ON THESE THINGS? MAKE SURE FOR INSTANCE THAT MY TRASH DOESN'T GET OVER A GIGABYTE.
Leo: OH THIS IS GREAT. THIS IS GREAT.
Rick Yaeger: I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE KEEP THINGS IN THEIR TRASH.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: BUT -- [Pop captions down]
Leo: CAUSE UNLESS YOU TELL IT TO GET RID OF IT, IT DOESN'T.
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT SO --
Leo: SO, SO HAZEL WILL.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH SHE GOES AROUND AND, AND TIDIES UP.
Leo: NOW I ACTUALLY PLAYED WITH THIS. THE MORE YOU CONFIGURE, THE MORE TIME YOU SPEND CONFIGURING IT THE MORE USEFUL HAZEL IS.
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT.
Leo: YEAH.
Rick Yaeger: SO YOU CAN, YOU CAN I, I SET IT UP EVEN TO, TO LOOK THROUGH MY APPLICATIONS FOLDERS --
Leo: DO THE FILES, WOW.
Rick Yaeger: TO FIND UM --
Leo: THIS IS FREE?
Rick Yaeger: UNIVERSAL APPLICATIONS. AH HAZEL'S 16 BUCKS.
Leo: 16 BUCKS.
Rick Yaeger: I'M PRETTY SURE.
Leo: I PAYED FOR IT BECAUSE I LIKE SHIRLEY BOOTH.
Rick Yaeger: THERE YOU GO.
Leo: AND THEN YOU'VE GOT ONE MORE?
Rick Yaeger: ONE MORE THE STRATEGY IS TO LOOK THROUGH YOUR ITUNES LIBRARY BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO KEEP EVERYTHING ON YOUR COMPUTER.
Leo: IT'S A REAL PROBLEM.
Rick Yaeger: YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP EVERYTHING ON YOUR IPOD.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: IF ANYTHING THIS IPOD SHOULD BE THE THING THAT KEEPS THE WHOLE LIBRARY.
Leo: RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: BUT GO THROUGH AND CREATE A UM SMART PLAYLIST. FIND OUT I, I SET ONE UP THAT LOOKS FOR ANYTHING UNDER TWO STARS.
Leo: OH CAUSE YOU DO THE RATINGS.
Rick Yaeger: RIGHT.
Leo: SEE I DON'T DO THE RATINGS.
Rick Yaeger: WELL HERE'S THE THING.
Leo: YOU'RE DOING THE RATINGS?
Rick Yaeger: HERE'S THE THING. I FOUND A, A PIECE OF SOFTWARE CALLED AUTORATE.
Leo: YEAH.
Rick Yaeger: THAT GOES THROUGH YOUR ENTIRE LIBRARY AND BASED ON HOW MANY TIMES YOU'VE PLAYED IT. [Pop captions up]
Leo: OH.
Rick Yaeger: AND HOW MANY TIMES YOU'VE SKIPPED IT.
Leo: IT KNOWS WHETHER YOU AND SO IT RATES IT. AND THEN YOU CAN SET UP A FOLDER AND DELETE THE STUFF YOU NEVER LISTEN TO.
Rick Yaeger: THE STUFF YOU NEVER LISTEN TO AND THE, AND THE THINGS YOU DIDN'T LIKE THAT MUCH.
Leo: SEE I SKIP THERE ARE SONGS I SKIP A LOT.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH.
Leo: AND I KEEP THINKING WHEN I GET HOME I REALLY SHOULD DELETE THIS. [Pop captions down]
Rick Yaeger: YEAH.
Leo: CAUSE I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH JUST BACK IT UP. YOU CAN MAKE A, A SMART PLAYLIST AND THEN HARD DRIVE IT.
Leo: BACK IT UP BRILLIANT.
Rick Yaeger: GET RID OF IT. [Both talking at once]
Rick Yaeger: IT'S YOU'VE STILL GOT IT.
Leo: THREE USEFUL TOOLS FOR KEEPING YOUR SYSTEM LIGHT, TIGHT AND RUNNING RIGHT.
Rick Yaeger: YEAH TRIM THE FAT.
Leo: TRIM THE FAT WITH RICK MACMERC YAEGER. YOU CAN GET HIS T-SHIRTS. [Pop captions up]
Rick Yaeger: APPROPRIATELY WE'VE GOT THE CUSTARD GOING HERE.
Leo: YES I'M GONNA EAT MORE CUSTARD AND I'M GONNA TRIM THE FAT ON MY COMPUTER. BUT I'M GAINING WEIGHT LIKE -- CRAZY. YOU CAN VISIT HIM AT MACMERC.COM. A GREAT PLACE FOR ALL SORTS OF FUN STUFF.
Rick Yaeger: THANK YOU.
Leo: FORUMS, PHOTOSHOP TUTORIALS AND T-SHIRTS LIKE OPTION SHIFT K.
Rick Yaeger: YES NOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
Leo: THAT IS SO OBSCURE. WE'LL BE BACK WITH A FINAL WORD ON "LAB WITH LEO" AND AN, AN HOMAGE TO SHIRLEY BOOTH RIGHT AFTER THIS. YOU STAY RIGHT HERE. [Pop captions down] [MUSIC] [Commercial break] [MUSIC]
Leo: THE SHOW MUST BE OVER. WE'VE GOT HAZEL AND THE CLEANUP CREW GETTING READY THERE. [Laughs]
Leo: ISN'T THAT GREAT?
Kate: THAT'S HILARIOUS.
Leo: HEY KATE I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR INTRODUCING ME TO THE BRITISH CONCEPT OF CUSTARD.
Kate: MY PLEASURE.
Leo: IN FACT I LIKE IT SO MUCH I'M EATING IT STRAIGHT OUT OF THE CAN NOW.
Kate: TOMORROW'S YORKSHIRE PUDDING?
Leo: IS IT? NOW THAT I LIKE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: MADE WITH GOOD, GOOD OLD-FASHIONED BEEF LARD. THAT'S THE, THAT'S THE TICKET FOR HEALTH. HEY WE'RE SO GLAD YOU CAME AND WATCHED AND I HOPE YOU'LL COME BACK AGAIN AND, AND WE'LL TELL YOU ALL ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THIS WILD AND WACKY WORLD. IF YOU WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW WE'D LOVE TO GET YOUR CALLS AND YOUR QUESTIONS. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GO TO THE WEBSITE NEWLY REDESIGNED.
Kate: NEWLY REDESIGNED. [Pop captions down]
Leo: LABWITHLEO.COM AND FILL OUT THE FORM THERE AND KATE WILL CALL YOU --
Kate: YES.
Leo: AND BOOK YOU ON THE SHOW. THANKS FOR JOINING US. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON "THE LAB". [MUSIC]
AHH [Pop captions down] [MUSIC] [Pop captions up quickly] CLOSED CAPTIONING PERFORMED BY: BROADCAST CAPTIONING & CONSULTING SERVICES INC. WWW.CLOSEDCAPTIONING.COM [Pop captions down]